I've mentioned before how James 4 has been on my mind a lot. Loosely translated: Pure and undefiled religion (worship) is caring for widows and orphans, and keeping yourself unstained by the world.
So, being in the world, but not blemished by it. What does it mean to remain unstained by the world? How can a Christian live in this world, love the lost, and keep from picking up the stains of worldliness? How do we remain, forgiven sinners amongst unaware or unbelieving sinners, and not compromise the moral values and standards set for us by our pursuit of holiness?
I think much of it has to do with motive and the intent of the heart. Sometimes two Christians can do the exact same thing, and one be unblemished, while the other accumulates a stain.
Let's take just one scenario out of the potential hundreds of decisions we, as Christians, need to make regarding this. And just to make it interesting, let's choose a topic that has lots of vehement and colorful opinions attached to it! :)
Should a Christian go to places with their unsaved friends where not only drinking, but drunkenness is a guarantee? Let's say, a bar or a party where the intent of many people is to get drunk.
Many would say "yes" to this question, using the argument that you have to meet non-believers on their turf, to build real relationship with them in order to have the opportunity to share Christ with them in the future. They may go further and say that their own habit of sobriety may serve as a witness, and that if they themselves don't get drunk, then they will not be affected by worldliness.
Others would say "absolutely not", because your very presence in such an atmosphere speaks approval to drunken behavior. They may go further to say that a party atmosphere where much drinking is the intent is not a likely place or time for an un-believer to hear or accept the Truth of the Gospel, and there are many other times and places you could choose to build relationship and have real conversations.
I think it comes back to heart motive. I think you would have to ask yourself these questions: What is my true intention for being in such an atmosphere? Is it truly to share the Gospel? Is a bar or party the best place/time to do that? Can I be there without being stained by the worldliness of the place or atmosphere?
I think two Christians can approach these questions with a similar "yes" answer, and one be right in his heart and the other be wrong.
I have more thoughts, but I'd like to leave this post open for thoughts. I have not made a clear-cut statement about it because I don't necessarily think it is clear-cut. But I'd like to hear your feedback.
Before commenting, please be respectful of these things:
1) I'm not looking for the answer to the question "Should a Christian be allowed to drink?" I'm more interested in the question "Can a Christian be in the party atmosphere of the world and remain unstained by it?"
2) In no way do I want to hear comments about denominational stances on alcohol. Thanks. :)
3) Please do not gossip. I ask you to refrain from naming names. Let's stick to philosophy and understanding of Scripture. I'd love it if you included direct scripture references!
13 comments:
I don't worry about being "stained" ever. I'm forgiven and my sins are gone. That's the end of it for me. My realtionship with God makes me whole and pure, the setting won't change that. As long as I don't sin myself I don't see how the "world" can rub off on me just by me being around it.
So yes, I don't hesitate to spend time with my friends in bars or at parties where there is drunkeness involved. I don't do it to be a "good witness" or "meet them on their level", I go because I love them and we are part of each others lives. In my mind this is what cummunity is about, and the only way I'm ever going to be Christ in their lives.
"I don't hesitate to spend time with my friends in bars or at parties where there is drunkeness involved. I don't do it to be a "good witness" or "meet them on their level", I go because I love them and we are part of each others lives. In my mind this is what cummunity is about, and the only way I'm ever going to be Christ in their lives."
Amen Lindy!!
Let me preface this (very long... sorry) response by saying if you dont know me, this reply is coming from a very traditional christian turned "radical"
This post stirs up a lot of what I have been thinking through for the least year or more. I am working in a church plant and my "job" is to be where Jesus seekers are and to make a difference in their lives. and let me tell you, Jesus seekers are at bars!! (as well as many other places granted!)
Jesus seekers are not generally at the grocery store and they are not at the town choir practice... they are in places of despair. That might sound harsh but let me explain. I think that people are on a continuous faith journey. they have had seeds sown in thier lives, and they are all at some point on the "faith journey" they may not be ready to give it up for God yet, but they are still on a journey toward it.
That being said, Jesus told us that we are to sow seeds in fertile soile, and let me tell you, my experience with fertile soil is that it is found where people are hurting, desolate, and know they have nothing left. While I believe that you can find people like that anywhere, I also believe in being a good steward with my time, and I know that going to the bar and meeting people there will reap much more fertile soil than meeting people at my stable classy car shop. Im NOT saying that Jesus seekers are not in those places, just that there are more chances of finding people who are ready to take a step toward God in places like bars.
I do acknowledge that being in places of despair often is wearing on me and on my spirit and if Im not careful it can have an impact on my faith, but the empahsis there is CAN. I have a choice to let it impact my faith or not, and I choose to work harder personally on my faith so that I can still be a part of people's lives where they are at. I dont feel that the risk is greater than the possible reward of seeing people come to Jesus because I chose to get out of my comfort zones.
Switching gears slightly I really agreed with what Lindy said about community. I have a great group of friends who I love to go for wings night at a local bar and did I not work the night shift, I would love to go with them. not to push boudries, or "reach out" but just to be community with them. to be there with them for thier lives like they are there with me for mine.
I think my best stratagy as a Christian witness it to be Jesus to people in everyday life and Jesus spent time with prostitutes and tax collectors (aka distateful's of the day) I think that if Jesus valued spending time with people of distaste then so should I, regardles of their surroundings.
~Jess
Yeah, people were drawn to Jesus, but what about that time when Jesus walked up to a known tax-collector/sinner and said
"Zacchaeus, come down immediately. I must stay at your house today." The rest of the passage says "So he came down at once and welcomed him gladly.
All the people saw this and began to mutter, "He has gone to be the guest of a 'sinner.' "
It would seem that Zacchaeus was drawn to Jesus, (wanted to catch a glimpse of him) but that Jesus met Zaccheus where he was, in his house, and that people were shocked and appalled that Jesus would do such a thing.
But Zacchaeus stood up and said to the Lord, "Look, Lord! Here and now I give half of my possessions to the poor, and if I have cheated anybody out of anything, I will pay back four times the amount."
Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham. For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost." (Luke 19:1-10)
Anyway- just saying. I haven't fully formed my thoughts on this issue....but it's fun to hear people discuss it.
"I know from experience how hard it is to have a meaningful conversation with a person who is drunk."
I think that you are totally right Brad- I think we could get a good comedy routine out of a Christian trying to witness to a drunk person. I would be completly pointless and stupid.
I think that I am coming at this whole thing from a different place. Maybe because I don't have a Church cummunity so my primary relationships are with non-Christian people. They are not my "projects" they are my friends, and the only ones I have right now that I can see face to face.
I hope that I am a good Christian example to them by being compassionate and loving, but I'm not going to stand myself apart from them because they are living by a different set of standards. Many of them have major issues with Christians and God. Holding myself apart (and lets be honest, higher) than then will only reinforce these feelings. They know my boundries and respect them.
"we are to "have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them"
Like gossip, materialism, judgementalism and gluttony? I'd better stay away from the average Church potluck and Christian bookstore then.
I don't mean to offend- but if "sin is sin" then we should take a serious look at the ways we are being stained by our fellow Christians.
I do believe a Christian can be in the party atmosphere of the world and be unstained by it, although I'm sure everyone has a different view of what being "stained by the world" is. I also look to the passages that Kelly and Brad mentioned to give me guidance as to what I should do. I have a lot of people at work that I am trying to develop closer relationships with so I take every opportunity I can to spend time with them. Like has already been said, every situation is not the situation to share Jesus in, but I think that times where you just spend time with people are as important as times where there is opportunity to share Jesus. Really, I think it's the times of just spending time together that lead to the times where there is opportunity to share Jesus. It's interesting what different people get out of things isn't it? I was just reading this verse the other night and what really stood out to me was the importance of caring for the widows and orphans (I've been really convicted by that lately). Anyway, there is my answer for what it's worth.
My wife was telling me about this conversation, and I wanted to contribute. I think to answer the question of our interactions we can look right to Jesus. To get right to scripture, this is how the NET phrases John 2:6-10:
"Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washing, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. Jesus told the servants, 'Fill the water jars with water.' So they filled them up to the very top. Then he told them, 'Now draw some out and take it to the head steward,' and they did. When the head steward tasted the water that had been turned to wine, not knowing where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom and said to him, 'Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!'”
There are a few observations to be made here.
We see Jesus was at a party with drunk people. Not only does the bridegroom tell us his guests were drunk, but he implied that it was expected and customary that wedding guests would be drunk. And here we have Jesus, showing up to an event he knew people would get drunk at.
Not only that, but he takes it to the next level. Jesus is at an event in which drunkenness is to be expected, and he creates even more wine for the guests. I had never realized it until I read it again in a translation that uses modern measurements, but Jesus made 120-180 gallons of wine. To put that in perspective, a full keg is 15.5 gallons.
So we have Jesus' first miracle. This is where he first reveals himself, at a party, where everyone is already drunk. His miracle is to provide a considerable amount of further inebriation.
Scripture tells us Jesus was in a place where drunkenness is a guarantee, not only that, he was supplying the alcohol. We know that Jesus was without stain, so I think I can answer your question with a definitive yes based on John 2.
Wow...what a wonderful blog topic Elizabeth!!! I don't think as Christians we are meant to 'hide' from life...it's a heart attitude that creates the sin from whatever situation you find yourself in..The disciples didn't hide.
I also think it's a personal choice (to go into a bar or party sitaution) ...neither right or wrong... I believe the Holy Spirit will convict you if it's a situation He doesn't want you to be in...or if it's created a sin in your life... I think it's possible to get 'stained' from the world...after all, we are human and flawed.... but Praise God we have a place to go for healing, forgivness and restoration...
Thanks so much for this blog Elizabeth...
For me, being in a place where drinking and occasionally drunkenness occurs is as simple as being with my family. Refusing to spend time with them or attending any of their celebrations or even just sitting down to talk over a beer or a glass of whine is probably the worst thing I could do in terms of showing Jesus to them.
We can't expect the unsaved to live by the rules of the saved. That's useless - it makes them feel judged, it makes us look superior, and it goes against scripture.
Also, I'm with Lindy. The only sins I'm responsible for are my own, and they've already been taken care of. Every day I'm in the presence of sinners, I'm exposed to sin. THe only way to avoid it completely is to live in a bubble, and that doesn't do anything for the Kingdom.
If we are going to talk about Jesus being at a party (which was for a celebration not just some random night out to get jiggy with it at a bar) we need to talk about alot of other things he used to do. On top of that we need to talk about if we are doing those things as often as going to bars and parties. Like praying with 12 men ALOT (goodfriends shall we say) or praying in solitude, or preaching from city to city etc...
At a party or a bar or in life...how does one speak (cursing and swearing after a couple of drinks or even not drinking at all?) how does one dress (being careful not to make or cause someone to stumble or present yourself in a way that is innapropriate?) how does one dance if dancing? (provocative? suggestive?or just having a good time?) What are on-lookers who don't know you like your friends do (knowing you are a child of faith) seeing? Would they see at the very least that you stand out?
Now also, if you are wanting to say to your friends that you don't think you are better then them and you are all for having a good time with them are they showing you that same curtousy? Will they come out to a christian concert with you? will they go to church with you? Do they refrain from saying things around you they know would be offensive while out at the party or bars? Are you standing out or are you blending in?
Is not going somewhere where alcohol is served different then going somewhere where the focus is the alcohol?
"Should a Christian go to places with their unsaved friends where not only drinking, but drunkenness is a guarantee?"
Does one not do more things with their friends then go to place's where drunkenness is a guarantee? Can we not have non-christian friends and decline from those situations? Lots of non-christians who just don't like that sceen would say "i'll catch up with you later or call me for coffee or lets have a games night soon? or no, you guys go ahead that's not my thing, we'll hang out soon."
The heart of the matter is that getting stained is very easy, that's why the Bible is as big as it is.
If you don't have christian friends or a community, then that is not in line with the word. We are called to be in community. I urge you to listen to Aj Thomas's sermon on that this week.(it's a podcast) At http://www.deepwaterchurch.com.
A person who is not in community is leaving themselves wide open for many things. (and yes, i have lived without community for a long time before and there is a HUGE difference.) When in community their is accountability, their is encouragment, their is growing pains, their is disapointment but in the end there is always a major factor in common....Jesus Christ and prayer.
So can we come away unstained when going places that drunkeness is a gaurentee? That depends on your intent and your actions. Going to a wedding everyone knows your intentions are to celebrate the marriage of the couple, going to a bar (and i mean like clubbing it) or to a chaotic house party what is the intent? Circumstance and intent....
I agree with steph, same thing with my extended family. Circumstance and intent.
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